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Gekisai Ichi
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| wgoodwin |
Posted on 27-08-2007 15:39
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Kyu Holder
Posts: 96
Joined: 12.07.06
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SyracuseJundokan wrote:
Maybe next time you come to class, we can all partner up and try it with each other and see if we can figure out how practical it is and/or how to make it more practical...
Oooh, there's an idea  . |
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| JKMann |
Posted on 30-08-2007 09:38
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Shodan-ho
Posts: 423
Joined: 06.12.05
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I have read and been taught that Chojun Miyagi invented the two gekisai kata in 1940. However, I have come across a few comments recently that suggest that he had help from a Shorin-ryu teacher (Shoshin Nagamine?). I know that Shorin-ryu does a very similar version of this kata. And I know that Goju people might fail to mention a Shorin-ryu contribution to this kata's origin. My question is: Is there evidence that Miyagi developed this kata with another person's collaboration and/or when did Shorin-ryu adopt this kata into its curriculum.
Thank you. |
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| ae |
Posted on 30-08-2007 10:09
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Ikkyu
Posts: 273
Joined: 19.11.05
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Hi Jeff
I remember reading that Nagamine sensei and Miyagi sensei were members of an Okinawan organization that wanted to promote karate in the school system. This organization (I don't remember the name) decided to create kata for high school children, so they planned a series of kata that would be common to all Okinawan schools (and styles). Nagamine sensei (Matsubayashi ryu) developed fukyu kata dai ichi, and Miyagi sensei developed fukyu kata dai ni. Fukyu kata dai ni is called gekisai dai ichi by us, goju people. This organization failed in their efforts to standardize karate kata at schools (WWII interrupted their work), but fukyu kata are taught in many systems. Miyagi sensei and Nagamine sensei probably exchanged ideas about their kata when they were creating them.
In the early 80's, back in Perú, Kokubo sensei taught fukyu kata dai ichi, and IOGKF-Perú still teaches it.
Ps.- I found this document that clarifies the history and corrects my mistakes:
http://seinenkai....fukyu.html
Edited by ae on 30-08-2007 10:33 |
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| wgoodwin |
Posted on 30-08-2007 10:10
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Kyu Holder
Posts: 96
Joined: 12.07.06
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JKMann wrote:
I have read and been taught that Chojun Miyagi invented the two gekisai kata in 1940. However, I have come across a few comments recently that suggest that he had help from a Shorin-ryu teacher (Shoshin Nagamine?). I know that Shorin-ryu does a very similar version of this kata. And I know that Goju people might fail to mention a Shorin-ryu contribution to this kata's origin. My question is: Is there evidence that Miyagi developed this kata with another person's collaboration and/or when did Shorin-ryu adopt this kata into its curriculum.
Thank you.
It is my understanding that yes, it was a collaborative(sp?) effort. I believe this was in part due to the working towards using karate to help in unifying Okinawa and Japan.
The details of, as well as whether or not this is true I cannot confirm, but that's what I'v been told by some of the people I'v trained with. |
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| JKMann |
Posted on 30-08-2007 11:27
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Shodan-ho
Posts: 423
Joined: 06.12.05
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Thanks Alfredo and Junkie. I appreciate your quick and helpful replies. |
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| davesmeds |
Posted on 30-08-2007 17:56
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Administrator
Posts: 58
Joined: 30.06.06
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This is very similar to a discussion thread going on now at martialartsfriends.com in the Goju-Ryu forum. The gist in the last few posts is correct. The two fukyu gata came out of the committee of eight or so Okinawan masters in the very early 1940s and were designed to be common introductory kata across styles. Number two, while it appears to have been finished first, became known to Goju practitioners as geki-sai dai ichi or, in the Japanese schools, geki-sai ichi. It soon acquired an alternate form, geki-sai dai ni.
Chojun Miyagi is thought to have been essentially the sole creator of geki-sai dai ichi, but it was in consultation with the group, and Nagamine was part of that group.
Dave
Edited by davesmeds on 30-08-2007 17:58 |
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| Dan Djurdjevic |
Posted on 30-08-2007 18:15
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Shodan-ho
Posts: 345
Joined: 26.06.05
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Yes it is true that Chojun Miyagi and Shoshin Nagamine collaborated, however they both designed separate kata as part of a joint exercise in popularising karate.
In 1940 a Karate-do Special Committee requested that the 2 masters design simple, effective kata for the popularisation of karate-do especially amongst school children. The masters decided to create one kata each that would contain the features of Shuri/Tomari te and Naha te to create a unified "karate-do" syllabus. The katas were to be called "Fukyugata ichi and ni".
"Fukyugata" is composed of 3 characters, the first meaning "general; popular; everywhere; universal", the second meaning "to reach" and the third meaning "form". Together the characters mean "kata to be spread or shared"
Nagamine's kata was "Fukyugata ichi" (essentially a simpler version of Pinan shodan, performed with both zenkutsu and sanchin dachi).
Miyagi's kata was "Fukyugata ni". Miyagi later renamed this kata Gekisai dai ichi when he created Gekisai dai ni.
Many shorin school still practice "Fukyugata ichi and ni". Their "Fukyugata ni" is recognisably the Gekisai dai ichi we all know, however it is preformed in a shorin manner (a little stiffly for my taste).
In our school we obviously practice Gekisai dai ichi and ni, however we also practice a modified version of Fukyugata ichi as our simplest kata (in the way some schools use the Taikyoku kata)
Our Fukyugata uses the same embusen as Pinan shodan (ie. not the simpler version in the original Fukyugata ichi) however it features sanchin and neko ashi (cat) stance as opposed to exclusively zenkutusu and kokutsu dachi as per Itosu's pinan shodan.
PS: I'm sorry if this doubles up on Dave's post: it seems we were writing at almost the same time.
Edited by Dan Djurdjevic on 30-08-2007 18:30 |
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| JKMann |
Posted on 31-08-2007 11:53
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Shodan-ho
Posts: 423
Joined: 06.12.05
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Another "Thank you" for the additional contributions.
Would it be correct to say that Miyagi was the one who created GSD1, but that he was part of a larger group that was developing such kata. And so he may have consulted with others during the process? If I understand correctly, those who say that this kata was created by Miyagi and Nagamine are overstating the latter's role. Does that sound right? |
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| Dan Djurdjevic |
Posted on 31-08-2007 17:47
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Shodan-ho
Posts: 345
Joined: 26.06.05
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JKMann wrote:
Would it be correct to say that Miyagi was the one who created GSD1, but that he was part of a larger group that was developing such kata. And so he may have consulted with others during the process?
As far as I know, only Miyagi and Nagamine were asked to create kata for this exercise. It is possible that they consulted each other, other contemporaries and even their students. However I doubt Nagamine had much to do with Miyagi's creation. On the other hand, Nagamine's Fukyugata shows some clear "Naha te" elements indicating his willingness to create a common syllabus: he introduced sanchin stances in his kata, for example.
JKMann wrote:
If I understand correctly, those who say that this kata was created by Miyagi and Nagamine are overstating the latter's role. Does that sound right?
As I've said, if there was any collaboration it was on Nagamine's Fukyugata ichi. Miyagi's kata however appears to be just a simplified goju form, containing elements of the higher kata but with more basic movements - I can't see any shorin there, unless you count the age ukes which don't occur in other goju kata. However it seems possible that age uke was a basic performed even in Miyagi's class, so it is more likely a reflection of the "basic" aspect of the kata.
I personally think Miyagi was less focussed on creating "common ground" than he was on creating a functional kata that would get fast results: you have to remember that it was a time of war and the pressure from the authorities to generate a practical training drill must have been quite strong. It is in this vein you will note that Gekisai dai ichi steps forward in the final move - unlike every other goju/shorin kata, perhaps indicating his desire to create a strong, aggressive kata. |
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| davesmeds |
Posted on 31-08-2007 20:59
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Administrator
Posts: 58
Joined: 30.06.06
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Stepping forward at the end _is_ radical, compared to the other kata. I was struck by that incongruity even as a white belt.
Dave
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| Dan Djurdjevic |
Posted on 01-09-2007 00:28
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Shodan-ho
Posts: 345
Joined: 26.06.05
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Some have suggested that Miyagi was motivated by nationalist sentiment in the design of the final move (ie. "there will be no retreat" ) however I personally don't think there is any such message in the kata.
I don't think there is any evidence to indicate that Miyagi was particularly interested in or motivated by nationalism/patriotism. If I'm not mistaken he was against changing the charater "kara" from "Tang" to "empty", however I might be wrong about this. I'll need to have a look at Sanizoo's translation of the meeting of karate masters again.
Talking about kata creation, I am interested in what others have to say about Gekisai dai san - a creation of Toguchi's. Toguchi claimed to have designed it in direct consultation with Miyagi in his final year of life...
Edited by Dan Djurdjevic on 01-09-2007 00:29 |
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| wgoodwin |
Posted on 01-09-2007 07:38
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Kyu Holder
Posts: 96
Joined: 12.07.06
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Dan Djurdjevic wrote:
Talking about kata creation, I am interested in what others have to say about Gekisai dai san - a creation of Toguchi's. Toguchi claimed to have designed it in direct consultation with Miyagi in his final year of life...
Just as a suggestion, I think this may have to have a different thread, not just because it's Gekisai dai san, but also because there may be some political flaming that noone interested in Gekisai dai ichi would probably want to get into. |
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| Smithy |
Posted on 05-10-2009 08:11
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Window Peeking
Posts: 1
Joined: 05.10.09
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Has anybody got a description of Chokosan as this is giving me co-ordination problems! I cant remember all the moves even when I run Gekisai Dai itchi through in my head. |
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| Sanzo12 |
Posted on 09-10-2009 02:16
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Window Peeking
Posts: 1
Joined: 09.10.09
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Come on, Dave. You're kidding that she's been training for only three months, right? She looks AWESOME!!!
Regards
Sanzo
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dossier surendettement |
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| jessicawats |
Posted on 06-11-2009 04:19
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Window Peeking
Posts: 1
Joined: 06.11.09
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Not just awesome but really awesome...I just can imagine that she will be this good after 3 months.
regards,
jessica
Simulation prêt
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